Chicago has long claimed Muhammad Ali as one of ours, but some people don’t know that he is actually not from the Windy City. Prime Video’s original series The Greatest looks at him as a young Cassius Clay and how he became the larger-than-life figure and icon we celebrate today.
This series exhibits the loving and nurturing relationship he had with his mother, the partnership and friendship he had with his brother, Rudy, and the strained relationship he had with his father, who was struggling with his own unrealized potential.
In my conversations with showrunner Ben Watkins and actors Jaalen Best, who plays Cassius, and Kai Parham, who plays Rudy Clay, we explored the people behind the legend.
Before the Legend, a Family…
Reggie Ponder: Ben, you show a mother’s love, a father’s anguish and regret, a son’s determination, and a brother’s support. How did you bring those elements into the series?
Ben Watkins: For me, it was so important, and actually it was one of the things that surprised me, so I hope it’s one of the things that surprises the audiences, these family relationships, because we’re so used to seeing Muhammad Ali, but we all see him when he’s just fully formed. And this show really starts at a time when he is just growing into his own, his coming-of-age element in season one, and a lot of it is built around these relationships he has with his family.
We could start with the dad. I mean, that’s the one that’s the most charged, especially early, and it’s really built around some things I learned about Cassius Sr.
First of all, the man was brilliant. There are people saying he was just good at anything he tried, okay? And then we know that he was a master painter; he could paint masterpieces, and of course, he did paint around town. His job was sign painter, but he was also painting these amazing murals in churches and on walls and stuff like this, and he always dreamed of being a painter, but he couldn’t live out that dream.
That became the crux of a relationship between them, a dynamic that I found out about and knew I had to put in the show. Imagine being a father who wants your son to live up to their greatest dreams and aspirations. But every step they take in that direction is gonna remind you that you didn’t get to fulfill your own potential.
So now you have this intense pride, and it comes head-to-head with this intense resentment, and that is one of the things that is in the show.
Reggie Ponder: I want to stay with the father for a minute. There’s this thing in the Black community where men feel emasculated when we don’t have the ability to provide and protect. You show how deeply that hurts him.
Ben Watkins: As much as we can all talk about the societal factors that really impacted the Black family, and you can go all the way back to where very specific things were done to dismantle the core family unit, and they continue to be done in many ways.
And even if they’re not being done actively, the ramifications of that are still being felt. But even if you know that there are intentional things that limited your ability to provide or limited your ability to protect, it doesn’t take away from the shame you might feel about that.
His son’s only 18, and he’s already able to provide more money for the family, provide more access and opportunity for the family, and that’s gotta really hurt your pride.
Reggie Ponder: Then there’s Bird. Who plays her, and what did you discover about her place in this family?
Ben Watkins: So Odessa “Bird” Clay is Dana Gourrier. And Dana, by the way, was the anchor of our set, so we cast the right person.
Reggie Ponder: Then there’s Bird. Who plays her, and what did you discover about her place in this family?
Ben Watkins: So Odessa “Bird” Clay is Dana Gourrier. And Dana, by the way, was the anchor of our set, so we cast the right person.
We also found out that Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali) was a mama’s boy, and so we needed to show that relationship.
He wins the gold medal, and he’s just on top of the world, just really effusive and loud, and larger-than-life, even at 18. Then he gets on the phone with his mom, and he’s just a little kid. The sound of her voice is enough to make him cry.
That’s the kind of key relationship we wanted, but it also comes with some contradictions because here’s a woman who breathed life into his dreams as well and wanted him to become anything he might set his sights on, but now he wants to be heavyweight champion of the world.
And on top of the fact that he could get hurt just trying to do that, physically hurt, she also knows that’s full of pitfalls in so many other ways when you get into that world.
Reggie Ponder: You describe her as the anchor, but she also has to navigate her husband’s anguish without putting Cassius over Rudy. How did you approach that balancing act?
Ben Watkins: I want people to have to contend with the fact that Bird was extremely strong, even if she chose to stay in a situation that involved domestic violence, and we have to confront that contradiction.
We need to see that. And she gets to make her decision about what a strong woman should do, whether you agree or disagree. Now, on the other hand, she’s propping up this man, Cass Sr., who’s trying to navigate a segregated world where he can’t even live out his own potential.
Then she’s out here fueling the dream of Muhammad Ali, and then she’s got this other son she loves just as much, Rudy, and she’s gotta make sure that he’s getting the same amount of love even though his brother is the one getting all the public attention. It is a really interesting dance to watch her do all of that and do it in a way that is so admirable.
Finding the Brothers…
Reggie Ponder: We’re excited to see Chicago’s Kai Parham playing Rudy. How did he find his way into that role?
Ben Watkins: You also gotta talk about Kai Parham and the breakout performance that he did as Rudy Clay. The truth is, Kai was up for Cassius. And he was down to the final four. So I was getting a real strong glimpse of who Kai was during this whole more than a year-long process to cast Cassius Clay.
I said, “If you don’t get Cassius Clay, would you be open to playing Rudy Clay?” And I was asking that question thinking, “I’ll never cast him as Rudy Clay,” but I just wanna see where their head is at.
Would they be sincere in their answer? And Kai said, “Of course I want Cassius Clay. I’m fighting for that role, but I would definitely be open to Rudy Clay.” And he mentioned that he was already getting familiar with Rudy just by researching Cassius, and he was admiring Rudy Clay already.
We kept bringing Kai back, and every time he would come back, he kept winning. He kept winning. And I kept saying, “But I don’t know, I don’t know.” And then finally we screen test him. And when I tell you Jaalen and Kai together, immediate chemistry like they’ve known each other their whole life, and they just go together.
Then we send the tapes out, and I’m sitting there still trying to hate on Kai. I’m still trying to hate on Kai. I regret it to this day. But I start getting feedback, people watching the screen test, and it’s unanimous. Kai Parham, Kai Parham, Kai Parham!
At that point, I said, “Well, I gotta get out of my own way.” This kid is the one. And I am so glad I did because, again, you’ll see when you watch the show, his performance by itself is fantastic. But their performance together, I think, is the secret hero of the whole season.
Reggie Ponder: You surprised me with that answer—especially the part about getting out of your own way.
Ben Watkins: Yeah. I’ve been in this business long enough to learn to do that. It took me a while. It’s funny because I always tell people now when I’m hiring and crewing up, I say, “When I do a good job, I know I did a good job when I get people around me who will conspire against me for my own benefit.”
Sometimes that’s what you need.
Reggie Ponder: Kai, what was the biggest challenge in bringing Rudy to life—and what felt like your biggest triumph?
Kai Parham: The biggest challenge for me when attacking this role was introducing this character, this person’s real life, to an audience that may or may not be familiar with him.
It’s an unfortunate truth that a lot of fans of Ali don’t know that he had a brother. And so for me, it was not only attacking the idea of capturing the essence of the character and making sure that is being perceived well and received well and respected, but also staying true to the story and talking about his real-life accomplishments and embodying the essence of him as a person, as a man, as a brother, as a sibling, and as a son.
There are so many layers to him, so I wanted to just make sure that I was not only capturing him but portraying him in a respectful way. And so I think I would say the entire completion of the project is the biggest triumph for me because that takes time, and it’s almost like a painting. You don’t finish a painting in a day. You take your time, and every stroke is intentional.
What the Roles Gave Back…
Reggie Ponder: You’re playing brothers, but you’re also working with Dana Gourrier and Omari Hardwick as your parents. What did they bring to the experience?
Kai Parham: You know, we are blessed to be surrounded by so many vets on this project, so many people that have really grinded their way into forming full careers.
Playing our mom is Dana Gourrier, and then playing our father is Omari Hardwick. Both of them just do a phenomenal job on and off the screen.
They poured into us a lot of life, a lot of guidance. They helped us out throughout this project in a multitude of ways.
Jaalen Best: Yeah. I would say the same thing. We spent a lot of time with them.
Especially being 18-year-olds, for me personally, you know, I didn’t have a father figure in my life, so spending a lot of time with Omari allowed me to kinda get a little bit of insight into what that may feel like, you know? And also not being able to rely too much on a son-and-father dynamic made it seem a little bit real for me.
I don’t think there’s ever really a replacement, but I think it did allow me to better position myself in this series, to understand what Ali and young Cassius Clay would’ve been going through at that time with his relationship with his father. So, I’m thankful to Omari for that.
And I think Dana also allowed me to find a more vulnerable side in myself that maybe my biological mom and I didn’t have. So I think this experience was a growth experience in the full range of it because not only were we going into it trying to figure out young Cassius Clay, but we were able to take valuable things and lessons away from that experience to be better sons for our real biological mothers and fathers.
So it was a great experience.
Reggie Ponder: Jaalen, beyond the performance, what has taking on this project meant for you personally?
Jaalen Best: I think this project, for me, is a rebirth of myself, and who I am and how I want the world to see me as an actor and as a person. There have been a lot of questions I’ve asked myself from taking on this role, along the lines of: what type of man do I wanna be outside of this? What type of actor do I wanna be out of this? So it’s been a real-life experience for me to be able to walk in Muhammad Ali’s shoes and see who he was as a young man, from 18 to 22, in this first season. And I’m still figuring out what my purpose is and what my calling is in this life. I feel like I’m close to understanding what that looks like for me.
I truly just feel like where I’m headed is gonna be somewhere special.
Reggie Ponder: Kai, that family connection extended beyond the screen. What did it mean to have your family with you at the Chicago screening?
Kai Parham: I come from a huge family, a huge family in Chicago. And so there’s Parhams everywhere all around Chicago. Growing up being interested in theater and things like that, my family’s been nothing but supportive from day one.
So being able to be a part of this project, and it being aligned that it comes through Chicago to do a screening, it just was a moment that you can’t really make up. You can’t write a story better than that. So being able to have my family there, my grandmother there, my father, my mother, family friends, people that attended some of my earlier productions and plays, and it’s just a full-circle moment.
Inside the Ring—and Beyond It…
Reggie Ponder: Ben, we’ve talked a lot about the relationships. What else do you want people to know about the series?
Ben Watkins: People who watch this show love talking about the relationships, especially the family relationships and the coming-of-age story, and that was my goal.
I wanted to do a show where you would be thinking about something other than Muhammad Ali the boxer. But I also wanna remind folks, the fights in this show are game-changing.
Number one, we took real fights, and we recreated them, so we actually are doing the real choreography of the fights, meaning everybody that you see, there are no doubles. They have to be able to do it, including our stars. If they’re in that ring, they’re the only ones in that ring, and they have to be able to do the entire fight.
So we took sections of fights and choreographed them exactly the way they happened.
We also did what we call broadcast, where we would shoot the fights multiple times with cameras in positions that were just like a telecast. We had to be able to really pull this off, and we had Clayton Barber as our choreographer, and all of our fighters had to invest in that and train for months to be able to pull that off, and I think people are gonna really appreciate that.
Reggie Ponder: What three messages would you like people to take away from the series?
Ben Watkins: Oh, wow. I think the first thing I really, that’s really important to me is to remind people that Ali was a person. …
Because I think we all envision this larger-than-life icon, superhero, legend, and we don’t realize that this was a human being who had flaws, and fears, and vulnerabilities. And when you realize that, the irony is you’ll admire him even more.
Reggie Ponder: That’s important because our heroes weren’t always loved. Ali became beloved, but that wasn’t always his experience.
Ben Watkins: I think one of the best parts of his story, and one of the things that we really are setting the table for, is the fact that there was a time when Muhammad Ali was the most hated man in America.
I am talking fact. I’m not talking hyperbole. And still he was not afraid to speak his mind, and still he was not afraid to give up fame and fortune. And still he was not afraid to be the only one saying what he was saying. People forget that because he became the most beloved man in the world.
Reggie Ponder: All right, I need your other two.
Ben Watkins: The first one is: remember he was a human. The second one goes back to that activist piece: find a way to be your own activist. You’ll see in season one, it’s a coming-of-age story. The first person that Muhammad Ali advocates for is himself as he grows into a man.
And he sets the table for him to be able to advocate for his family, then his community, then the country at large, then the world. But we could do it in a small way. You don’t have to be Ali to make a difference. I hope that just seeing this kid being willing to risk things, being willing to stand up for what he believes in, might motivate us to be an activist even in a small way, in our own way.
And then the last thing—and this is a motif that I talk about throughout the entire first season, I will always talk about this—that it’s never just one person. …
I want us all to be aware of that because we have to be aware of the experiences and the people that are the bricks that make up our foundation. But also, very importantly, we gotta understand we are bricks for other people, and you gotta be cognizant and intentional about what you’re laying for other people’s foundations.
It could be your kid, or it could just be somebody you run into at the supermarket. You might be somebody that day that adds to the foundation that could make them make a difference.
A Childhood Hero, a Chicago Connection…
Reggie Ponder: Let me ask you about your bricks. Who helped build the foundation that got you here?
Ben Watkins: Oh, man. I gotta start with my family, my father and my mother.
My mother is so interesting because I was telling someone the other day that I spent a year in Joliet, Illinois, and during that year I was in the first grade, and I came home one day with a Scholastic Reader catalog where I got to order books. And the book that I chose was a Muhammad Ali biography, and the only reason I chose it was that I saw the picture on the front.
It was a Black man, and I chose that book, and I read that book about 100 times, and then I found out that he lived in Chicago. And my mother worked in Chicago, and so I said, “Mom, you gotta take me to his house.” So one weekend, she drove to his house just to show me the house, and I said, “No, we gotta stay here till he comes out.”
So we’re outside this mansion in Chicago, and we’re parked there for over an hour, and she really gets tired. And I’m this seven-year-old kid saying, “We not leaving until I see Muhammad Ali.” Finally, a limo pulls out of the driveway, and it has tinted windows, and as it drives off, she says, “Did you see? He waved.”
Now, I don’t know if he waved, but I was so happy. She was an amazing brick for me, and that was the beginning of it. It’s so funny to come full circle now. Here I am in Chicago, talking about this show that I was honored and fortunate enough to make about my lifelong hero, and I can trace it all the way back to that one day when I was sitting outside his house, and my mother took the time to just park us outside at the chance of me getting a glimpse of my hero.
As it turns out, Muhammad Ali became the world’s hero, and The Greatest gives us a glimpse of how he got there.
The Greatest is streaming now on Amazon Prime, with all season one episodes available now.
